My new 944 [UPDATE #2] - Need your help

"wtovin" (wtovin)
08/01/2014 at 15:07 • Filed to: porsche, 944, lemon, horror, story, horror story, walker, tovin, wtovin, used car, used, help

So I need your help guys. For those of you who have been following the ballad of my !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , you know I broke down in the car about 2 miles from the sellers house yesterday due to seized brakes and a worn out coolant hose.

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I called the seller from the side of the road to inform him and he accused me of tampering with the car or "over-driving" it.

I limped it to a garage nearby hoping that unfreezing the brakes and a new hose was all that would be required. However, this morning I got a much grimmer prognosis than I was expecting.

Amongst small things such as rotors, calipers and tie rods, the car appeared to have had an electrical fire or short at some point. All the electrics worked, but certainly wouldn't hold up for long. And that's just the beginning...

On the mechanic's short test drive (under a mile) the timing belt snapped. Those of you who are familiar with 944's know that a snapped timing belt is essentially the kiss of death. When I purchased the car, I was told that the belt had recently been replaced (within 1,000 miles), and that the car would surely run solidly for at least 10 or 15 thousand miles before needing any serious maintenance.

With the snapped belt, shot suspension and brakes, and fried electrics, this car is essentially done. Without putting about twice what I payed back into rebuilding or swapping the engine, buying all new suspension and brake components, and redoing the wiring harness, the car is toast.

All of this happened within 5 miles of the sellers house, and only after about 10 minutes of pretty mild driving. The car now sits on the mechanics lot, and if it isn't moved shortly, I will be charged a storage fee.

What do I do now? This was my first car, and accounted for about 80% of my life savings. The seller is completely unwilling to corporate or even acknowledge any issues with the car. Being a used car it isn't covered by Lemons Laws, and I don't have anything in writing from the seller about the cars condition to bring to court. He erased the Craigslist post, and I'm not sure how I should proceed.

Anybody have any suggestions? Experiences? I'm really pretty desperate here. I had heard used car horror stories in the past, but this one seems pretty exceptional. I certainly take partial responsibility for not insisting on a PPI, but I never imagined I would be so badly ripped off and taken advantage of.

Anything is welcome.. Thanks

DISCUSSION (46)

Flavien Vidal > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:10

I'm afraid you will have to sue him... No other choices... Buying a car and having the brake seize and the "new" timing belt snap... He just tried to screw you.

McChiken116 - Patrick H. > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:15

Small claims court exists for this reason. He will either take the car back, and give you your money, or be forced to pay to fix it. And let this be a lesson I also learned the hard way: Always have a mechanic look at a car before you buy it.

Sn210 > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:16

I'd get in touch with a lawyer and find out your state's Lemon Laws. Just because your car is used doesn't mean it's not covered. Situations like this are exactly why Lemon Laws were enacted in the first place. The seller misrepresented the car

offroadkarter > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:21

Wait, you bought an 80's german sports car as your first car? That was a major mistake right off the bat

Sorry dude but it sounds like you got hosed and I doubt you'll be getting any of your money back unless you can prove the seller knowingly lied about the cars shape. Even if you win in small claims court you may never see a dime of payment from him.

jariten1781 > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:22

Going to be hard to get anything out of it.

Document everything you can. Get the mechanic to write up condition as is and you'll have to compare that to the condition represented at sale. Search around, there's a lot of sites that use spiders to duplicate craigslist ads so you may be able to find some vestige of it out there on the internet. Search any specific key words you remember +location.

If he explicitly represented something wrong prior to the sale you may be able to get something out of him. If he was matter of fact in stating 'as-is' you've got a tough row to hoe. Value should be low enough that it will be handled in small claims.

Dsscats > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:22

http://archive.org/web/

You should be able to find the craigslist post through this. If he mentioned anything about a new belt, you have reasonable cause to sue him.

505Turbeaux > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:22

check the google cache quick and see if the post is still archived. What was the original ad url?

MIATAAAA > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:27

What did the seller state, in writing (in the sale agreement and/or on Craigslist) regarding the condition of the car?

JGrabowMSt > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:28

Where are you located? This weekend is kind of shitty in terms of my abilities to come out and help, but shoot me an email to [my username] @ gmail with your zip, and also what the storage fees are where the car is currently located. Lastly, how far away is it from where your house is, and do you or any family members have AAA?

I can try and meet up with Mathias and we can both come out and take a look for you. I don't have a trailer or access to one easily, but I know I wouldn't mind coming out to take a look at it.

There's blissful ignorance if the seller never pulled the timing belt cover, they'd actually never know. Belts can also "just go" for no apparent reason, so it's not necessarily their fault, but for the sake of argument, everything is their fault. Small claims court as already mentioned is your first step. Do you have any way to get to the original listing? Try the Wayback Machine and see if you can get a screenshot of the listing, or print it out. You absolutely need their listing word for word. An as-is sale will mean you're on your own. Anything listing recent maintenance will be your ticket. No shop I know of will do work without letting you know of any other current or potential problems you will likely run into. If there's been recent maintenance on the car, you can nail the seller over failure to mention existing problems. All you can really go after are damages (towing & storage) as well as the cost of the car. Anything more than that will likely be pure luck on your part.

In all, tread lightly, but use every tool available to you in order to do things the right way.

deekster_caddy > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 15:33

I would stop by the local police or Sherriff's office and have a chat with them. In MA they started applying lemon laws to all sales, dealer and private. You may have other recourse. There is no such thing as an "As is" sale in MA anymore. The vehicle has to be able to pass inspection. You never even made it to an inspection station!

edit - more info:

ARE PRIVATE SALES COVERED?

No. If you bought your car from a private individual (rather than from a dealer) you are not protected by the Used Car Lemon Law. You should consult a lawyer for advice as to other possible remedies. If the purchase price was $3,000 or less, you may wish to pursue your claim in Small Claims Court.

http://www.ag.ny.gov/consumer-fraud…

wtovin > MIATAAAA
08/01/2014 at 15:49

He listed all the new repairs (resealed engine, new transmission, new timing belt, etc.)

MIATAAAA > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 16:56

If he listed those items and they were false claims, then small claims court. If he actually made those changes, but only other things have gone wrong (e.g. brake failure but he never claimed to have restored the brakes; timing belt appears to be new, but broke for some reason not due to age), there isn't really recourse.

wtovin > MIATAAAA
08/01/2014 at 17:16

Yeah, it's hard to say. Ultimately I think the main thing is that he said the car was solid, and only needed minor tweaks, but it had a catastrophic engine failure within 5 miles of his house. There's no way he didn't know it was on the verge of death.

wtovin > Dsscats
08/01/2014 at 17:31

Unfortunately this didn't bring any results. Any other sites like this you could recommend?

Your boy, BJR > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 19:57

Not to be a dick, but you got fucked. It happens. Live, learn, don't buy another Porsche from sketchy fucking Russians. (I may be profiling a bit on that last one)

Brian Silvestro > wtovin
08/01/2014 at 20:31

Goddammit. Is it too much to ask for an all-944 NYC crew? That guy's a dick.

wtovin > 505Turbeaux
08/02/2014 at 02:53

http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/4576058205…

505Turbeaux > wtovin
08/02/2014 at 06:57

damn looks like all search caches are refreshed to the deleted pages. If you need a copy you can go here but it costs something https://harmari.com/search/craigsl…

TheBaron2112 > wtovin
08/02/2014 at 13:14

That really sucks.

But let this be a lesson to everyone here. A cheap 944 is going to be a piece of shit or a money pit.

Oppo, if you want to buy a 944, either pay for a good example, or plan on putting into it double what you pay for it if it seems too good to be true.

Conan > wtovin
08/02/2014 at 13:21

I think it's SteveLehto who's the auto lawyer who sometimes posts on the frontpage. He might give some free advice to a Jalop.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > wtovin
08/02/2014 at 14:01

K-Roll's interrogational questions are as follows:

1. Did you do a PPI?? If this 944 is going to be your daily driver, it is of the up most importance to have had the car inspected by a Mechanic that knows Porsches

2. Timing belt snap after only "1000 miles"??? That's impossible unless it was a crappy belt. And actually it should last at least 30,000 miles or 4 years if driven regularly. If it snapped while driving and the mech. drove it back to the garage as such, pray that you don't have bent valves..

3. I don't think Lemon Law applies to a 30 year old Porsche, because it's not like you can get an all brand-new one. I personally don't know about those laws but that's how I see it.

4. That seller is an asshole. He probably knew about the problems and just wanted to get the car off his property.

5. You can find good 944 engines on eBay for $500, so it's not that bad to replace.

6. That seller sucks. Life lesson from K-Roll, when going into a car purchase, it's strict business, don't show any emotions. It's all Poker Face until the car is in your possession.

But if you don't want to put any more money into it, then yeah, that car is finished. another 944 dead. :(

I cannot stress this enough with ANY EURO car, be it a Porsche, Audi, VW or hell, a V8 Taurus SHO 3rd gen with it's interference engine; GET A PPI!! Or at least have a mechanic look at the car before you buy it. -_-

I'm sorry this happened to you and your first car, a 944 no less. I know it's also a very sad time because of it, but I strongly beg you to take this as a lesson as well for the future. And do keep us updated if possible. If I was closer to NY, I would come out to help you. :(

Stef Schrader > wtovin
08/03/2014 at 04:25

Hoooooooly crap!

I wonder who installed the timing belt. You HAVE to tension it correctly, otherwise it will snap. I got stranded in a friend's Miata (yep, Miatas break) because the timing belt in that was over-tensioned and it snapped.

I would approach the owner and ask what shops were responsible for the maintenance listed. That'll get to a) some shop that shouldn't have touched the car or b) whether the work was done by the owner really quickly. It'll also show if the owner's lying about that or not.

theo > wtovin
08/03/2014 at 23:59

All feelings of frustration aside, do you really believe he knew how fucked the car was when he sold it to you? or do you think he was unaware and hadn't driven it for a long time. (not taking sides just gathering facts)

wtovin > Dsscats
08/04/2014 at 12:17

The ad clearly stated New belt, transmission, and rebuilt steering rack. The mechanic's report showed that the steering rack was basically in pieces and the belt broke after less than 5 miles of driving. In addition to this, all four brakes and the front suspension was "beyond repair".

wtovin > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/04/2014 at 12:29

Thanks for the help. Unfortunately, the car is dead. The valves are bent, suspension and brakes are "beyond repair", steering rack needs rebuild, etc. A majority of these catastrophic failures are involving parts that the seller assured me were new or rebuilt. We're starting to think that some of these failures may have been caused intentionally. We didn't leave off on a good foot before I picked up the car, and it definitely was driving worse when I picked it up than it was on the test drive a few days earlier. According to the mechanics report it was a miracle the car drove at all. I've called him multiple times and he's ignored my calls. I've informed him via voicemail that unless he returns my calls I'm going to file a police report and bring him to court. There's a possibility that I can gather enough evidence for a criminal suite instead of Small Claims.

wtovin > theo
08/04/2014 at 12:33

Honestly I think it's a mixture of the two. Undoubtedly he lied about some things, and others he may have just been unaware of. The car hadn't been driven in a while but either way, he grossly misrepresented the state of the car. Also, we are questioning whether some of these failures may have been the result of intentional tampering. We didn't leave off on a good foot after I payed, and the car seemed way worse when I picked it up then it was on the test drive a few days earlier.

wtovin > Conan
08/04/2014 at 12:42

I've spoken with our family attorney who suggested Small Claims Court, unfortunately, once a date is set, it's highly unlikely that he will appear at the hearing, and even less likely that he'll actually make any payments if the ruling is in our favor. I'm going to file a police report with the local department, and hopefully gather enough evidence of intentional wrongdoing (misrepresenting a car, and selling me a vehicle that was extremely unsafe to drive. The brakes and suspension failed within 2 miles of the seller's house - and the timing belt may have been intentionally compromised.) - If i'm able to file a criminal suite, simply ignoring the court date and ruling bares much heavier consequences.

wtovin > 505Turbeaux
08/04/2014 at 12:46

Anyone have any experience with this site? It's $90, just want to make sure that if I spend the money I'll actually get results.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 13:12

It's a shame that another 944 had to die like that. :(

But hopefully some good can come from it. What will you do for a car now? I hope this incident doesn't turn you off from 944s; they're excellent cars, regardless of their life threatening quirks.

505Turbeaux > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 13:25

it will work, though what, if any, your recourse is in the matter if you signed something that says "as-is". But if you are pursuing legal action then it will help to have that for sure. Cops use it for evidence I know

Dsscats > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 13:59

You have a serious case in small claims course. It's even more important if he implied it was safe to drive home

wtovin > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/04/2014 at 14:45

This was all my money. Unless I can get some of my cash back from this scumbag I'll have to start saving again from scratch.

wtovin > Dsscats
08/04/2014 at 14:48

He more than implied it, he guaranteed that the car was road worthy and only in need of minimal repairs.

Dsscats > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 14:59

Oh yeah, you should sue

Dsscats > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 15:00

I know it's inconvenient and can be a bit pricey, but get together a good case and you can get more than your money back. After all, this has taken up a lot of your time and caused many emotional damages.

Conan > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 15:13

Good luck. It seems like you are on the right track.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 15:31

I shall rally the troops to invade, pillage and destroy this scumbag of a person!

Kinja'd!!!

I wish you the best of luck in your assault on that scumbag; if karma means anything, he'll get whats coming to him soon enough!

wtovin > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/04/2014 at 17:16

Thanks man. If all else fails I may just post his cell number on here.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 17:26

Get Jalopnik in on this shit! :P

wtovin > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/04/2014 at 17:41

That would be awesome.

JALOPNIK-IS-JEZEBEL-FOR-CARS > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 19:19

Well... wow. That's quite the experience. What are your plans with the car now? After everything is settled and assuming you still have the car, that is.

wtovin > JALOPNIK-IS-JEZEBEL-FOR-CARS
08/04/2014 at 23:41

Probably sell the rims, tires, steering wheel, etc. and scrap the rest. I'll probably put it back up on Craigslist as a rolling project car.

schwartz > wtovin
08/04/2014 at 23:53

I would say keep it, and turn it into a project car. Brakes are a easy swap over from other Porsches's but if if they are seized new calipers, pads and rotors aren't to pricy. Put new aftermarket suspension in. Get a junk yard motor and steering rack. If you wrench it yourself you could get it running again in mostly stock form or under 1k bucks. That being said I know people are looking for shells to do turbo swaps or ls swaps for racing as they make one hell of a track vehicle with about 400hp. Don't scrap it!

wtovin > schwartz
08/05/2014 at 11:31

My problem is I've already put way too much cash into this car, and I'm going back to school in 3 weeks so I'll have no time to do any of that work myself. Also, I only have 2 weeks to move it from the mechanics yard it's sitting on now or I'll be chargerd $25/day.

BondoSpecial > wtovin
08/05/2014 at 17:51

Everyone who thinks you can sue and successfully collect money from someone who would sell an old 944 in this condition is crazy. The money is probably long gone. Then add in the time it's going to take and your legal fees. You had no legally binding contract so the car was effectively sold as is. Buy old cars w/ the understanding that it's on you to determine what you are actually buying. The cheaper the car, the less likely you are buying a driveable car. You either have a project car or a parts car now. Stash it for a future build, or sell it for what you can get.

N51fanatic > wtovin
08/13/2014 at 21:27

Dude, this fuckin sucks. I am just reading all of this today. What a POS seller. Its one thing to have a timing belt break, i mean shit happens. But its not ok when the seller claimed to replace it less than 1000 miles ago. I recall this seller having quite the stable of fine automobiles, what a POS. I feel really bad for you OP. Not sure what else you can do.

Buy a domain name with the sellers name, post pics of the car and the ordeal calling him a lying crook. That way when folks google his name the site comes up. Maybe that will get him to cooperate.